ondine

Having really taken a close look at these kids' photos, I believe they are indeed his. Mine is a mixed race family. My father has dark skin (like Gabrielle Union) but he has light blue eyes. He had a hazel eeyd brother & one with green eyes. The rest had dark brown ones. My cousins range in colour from blue eyed blondes to red heads to tall very dark black people. MJ's father has blue eyes. His mother, while black is also has some white ancestry. There are similar couples in my family & it is surprising how diverse the kids' appearances are. Google Garcelle Beauvais-Nilon's twins on google images. She is a decidedly black woman who marries a white man. She gave birth to blonde white blue eyed twins. Halle Berry's daughter with her partner also has big blue eyes. Once a trait is in both parents' gene pools, anything is possible.

As for Debbie Rowe, she married this man. I wonder about her own good sense. She walked away from those kids leaving them exclusively to MJ. This is not like walking out of a marriage & leaving the guy your toaster & your coffee-maker. MJ's mother, aside from being married to that weird man, seems like an okay enough person & for all anyone knows, she loves her grandchildren dearly. Ms. Rowe hardly seems like the voice of stability & parental responsibility in this group. I wish the children comfort & support. Whatever anyone else thinks, for them, he was their father.

Lexi2009

Ondine--MJ's father Joe has blue eyes also. It is genetically possible but the two older DO NOT look enough like him. The little girl IS the spitting image of Debbie Rowe and the boy only looks like him due to how he has his hair which is environmental. I might add he is going to be a very handsome man he already is very handsome but I do not think they are Michaels. I DO think the youngest is Michael's! I agree with you though on genetics, the general rule is that one can be as light as the lightest parent but no darker so any much lighter is within the realm of possible. It is not like a white blond/blue eyed couple having a black brown eyed child (impossible).

The bottom line though is that he was a very good father and parent and has to be considered their parent. The one thing that bothers me is that he did an amazing job keeping them out of the public eye and since his death this already seems to have vanished. Those children need to stay sheltered and I also hope Joe Jackson does not try and turn them into anything!

As for Debbie Rowe--well everyone is saying she WOULD only come forward for the money now if she came forward BUT I personally can see another reason--namely preserving some normalcy for the children and also the fact that Michael was an extremely good parent and perhaps now she would worry. I also cannot understand how she can have done this unless it truly was just pure surrogacy with someone else's eggs. Michael astonishingly had a birth certificate done for the baby where the mother space was left BLANK!

gymrat

The circus has arrived? I was in LA today and didn't see a circus?? Lots of people paying their respects, no circus, and no clowns.

As for the press getting stories from The Sun, are you kidding me? Why would the press go to London for something happeing in California??? Uhhh don't know where you are getting your information but you are VERY wrong!! I am very knowledgeable when it comes to news and the press. Most papers use The Associated Press for news that isn't in their backyard. There is NO reason to go to London for this news.

Now if you are talking about online blogs, they pull info from where ever they can get it. With NO guidelines for crediblility. If you are getting your info from TMZ read the title, it is Celebrity Gossip and everything posted is by TMZ staff. No name, nothing attached. Would I believe what I read there, probably not.

People who complain about the press, will complain on the days there isn't enough news out there. That is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. The news is the news. Good news, bad news, sad news, etc. If it is news worthy and there's an appetite for it, you better count on it blasting the news. That is life.

It is rather frustrating when this is happening in my backyard but yet you think you know so much about what is taking place. No circus!! So not true.

As I walked the streets in LA today, people were kind, talking, hugging and guess what ......reading the paper!! They are sad, but yet hopeful. Hopeful that this will pass and The Jackson family can find some peace. Just as the rest of us, we should want nothing less for this family than that!

Lexi2009

Gymrat--in respect, several of the MAJOR stories were broken by The Daily Mail and The Sun. One; Debbie Rowe is NOT the mother (untrue carried by all the US press but broken in UK). 2. Michael Jakcson's dermatologist was the biological father (same thing) 3. Michael Jackson weighed 112lbs and was riddled with needle marks (again) and so on!

The British press is notoriously brutal and known to jump at stories with a serious presumption of truth. They are usually correct but not always and certainly many of these stories are being broken first in UK. J Randy Taborelli, long time friend and biographer of Michael Jackson, has and is doing a whole article series in the Daily Mail talking about all sorts of things which each day are slowly seeping into the US media.

The press is NOT what it once was, TMZ BROKE this story, not CNN (THE OBAMA NEWS NETWORK) or even FOX or any major news station or paper, it was TMZ! The internet has drastically changed the press and that is why so many papers are also going under.

As for the comment on the circus--SURELY YOU HAVE HEARD THE SAYING MEDIA CIRCUS? This is what IS happening and I WAS referring to. You hardly need to be in the geographic location in this day and age to see a media circus. Statistically as reported yesterday Michael Jackson was the second largest story of ALL last week and he only died on Thursday--Iran was second to him and that was happening all week. I do think that qualifies as a media circus.

ondine

Somehow, when I think of Debbie Rowe, normality is not what comes to mind. She had 2 kids with MJ & then walked away & left them & her parental rights with HIM. So far, as bizarre as MJ's father is, his mother seems relatively normal. None of the kids have ever come forward & made strange claims about her. For all we know, she is a loving & caring grandmother. For the sakes of those kids, I truly hope so. MJ's will specifically excludes Debbie Rowe by name: I think MJ foresaw that, if something happened to him, that she might suddenly feel a rekindling of her maternal instincts & have grounds for a huge claim on the estate.

While some of the press' handling has been disappointing, the person I dislike the most in this in MJ's father. His son's body had barely gone cold & he was out in public casually discussing the 2nd autopsy on his son that was happening at that moment & his upcoming business ventures with some other weird guy in the same breath! He seemed as unmoved as someone discussing getting their carpet cleaned. He seemed completely indifferent to the loss of his son. As a parent, I found this to be demoralizing.

As for laying any blame, MJ must take the lion's share of it as a grown man responsible for the choices he makes. The same way he could choose to continue abusing meds & surrounding himself with enablers, he could also choose to get help, go to rehab & get rid of these hangers-on. Sad though it is to see him go, it seemed almost like a suicide. He HAD to have known he was risking his life.

Lexi2009

Ondine again I agree with all you say! The father plugging his record label was sick. The man is an opportunist and the one comment I heard which I think is very true is that he married Katherine because he thought she could give him many children. His children were his ticket out. He has a very hard and cold look to him.

As fo Debbie Rowe--we will never know all the facts but at face value it is hard to understand how anyone can do what she did but it does happen everyday as is the case with surrogates who do not use someone else's eggs. I think what sets it apart for me is that a surrogate does it and never sees the child again but these kids and their odd father were in the news all the time and not seeing them again or thinking of it was not an option nor did she give them to a normal desperate family where they would have believed they had a mother. I cannot imagine what the children must think having NO mother and eventually learning she gave them away.

I also have to say that it is unfortunate but true that the blame is on Michael Jackson. I do believe that addiction is a disease and that second to him and almost before him are all the enablers. Doctors come and go in an addicts life and some give too freely and it is negligent if not criminal at times but in the end doctor shopping is not new nor will any laws stop this. Michael was a very sad person.

ondine

So true, Lexi; & with a few mouse clicks, anyone can order all the meds they want from the myriad providors online. Who's to say he even got them from a Dr? He may just have whipped out a credit card & ordered the stuff himself! Unless a Dr was testing his blood for the presence of these specific items, they might not have been detected. Some remain on the system for a long time, others do not linger. Perhaps, as many addicts do, he fooled the Drs?

Lexi2009

Addicts are adept at fooling everyone and the other thing that people discount is that they are adept at fooling doctors into giving them what they want. I was watching INTERVENTION the other day and they had a woman with multiple addictions though not eating was her biggest issue and she easily went in and laid on the pain and walked out with what she wanted. One of her children told the cameras--"Mommy is fine then she goes into the doctor and she gets a lot of pain".

The only thing that would very seriously change my mind now is if he in fact got Diprivan from a doctor. They seemingly found it at his home. It is also known as Propofol and it is so dangerous that if doctors abuse it they often die from it. Anyone who has had a general is likely familiar with this as it is the injection that "stings" going in (NOT valium) and it then knocks you out almost immediately. The one thing people remember which I think is why it is abused is that they feel AN EXTREME euophoria just before you go under. Michael had apparently begged a nutritionist/nurse for this drug or rather to find anyone who would prescribe it to him "AT ANY PRICE".

ondine

...wait a sec, Lexi: are you saying that people get ahold of this stuff, inject it for a second's worth of euphoria then they PASS OUT Since this is amedication used to knock people out for operations, how do abusers know how much to administer to ensure that they wake up afterwards How long do they remain out I sure learned something new today! I was astonished seeing, on that same intervention show, people abusing oxy contin! They somehow melted & then injected it. Once my Dr gave me a prescr for this stuff. I filled in for exactly 3 pills. I tried one,m it DID help the pain BUT it made me very tired. by day's end, it was time for pill 2. It turned me into a bonafide ZOMBIE! The next day, I returned pill 3 to the pharmacy, called my Dr & told him that there was no way I could take this med. Those injecters on TV were able to tolerate massive doses of the stuff & actually seemed to enjoy getting all zombie-like from it. Hard to imagine enjoying feeling that way.

Do drs ever prescribe Diprivan to patients or is it a strictly Dr administered med?

Lexi2009

DOCTORS abuse this. It is STRICTLY prohibited and typically has to be prescribed in the presence of TWO doctors. In Sweden and UK to prescribe this you need to have two signatures of BOTH physicians who will be administering this. Usually it is an anesthesiologist and the surgeon/doctor they are working with. The only exception is in emergency rooms. It is NOT ever prescribed.

The issue is that some doctors know it gives a high and some patients (presumably like MJ who have had many surgeries) at some point found out what the drug was that made them feel so good. The doctors who have used it have tried, sometimes successfully according to reports, to administer low enough doses not to get knocked out on it. MANY people who abuse it end up dead.

I personally am with you. Not only do I have converse reactions to most drugs (I have had diprivan during an emergency surgery and it amazingly had NO effect on me and with my permission they simply gave me locals and proceeded), but also I get sick from drugs. I have never felt high from any prescription! I get dizzy, sweaty, clammy and panicked on opiates. I have had percocet for my wisdom teeth and went into a full blown panic attach that I was never going to come down and after an emergency procedure I was given vicodin and same thing. I do not think me and pain meds mix. I also have an abnormal tolerance to benzos which is likely down to a very high metabolism. I tell people about my dislike for RX drugs and they think I am crazy but I know there are many people whose bodies do not react like they should to medications and also like you and I who just really do not like being high. I do not mind having a buzz from champagne or wine but other than that I get panic-stricken if I feel out of it.

SkinCareDiva

Whatever doctor(s) over the years contributed to detroying michael's face should be arrested. What kind of person gives plastic surgery to an obviously, mentally ill person with body dysmorphic syndrome? Also the enablers and doctors who let Michael stay addicted to all the pills, etc. People just looking for the money and forget they are destroying a wonderful person who gave so much to us. I dont believe any of the crap about him molesting children either. More people looking for pay outs and they got them.

So sad. Michael's music was such a big part of my teens. I get sad just thinking about it even a week later.

ondine

Lexi, that was one of the scariest posts I've ever read. I looked up this drug & boy is it potent & scary. You'd think a Dr. of all people would know better than to abuse it!

I always thought MJ was dysmorphic (& detached from reality in some ways). You'd think a plastic surgeon wouldn't want his name associated with such terrible work! MJ seemed to be chasing some impossible shifting ideal that was unattainable. It is a wonder he could still sing or even breathe after such extreme work. The 1st nose job looked great: just a little narrower & straighter with a less bulbous tip. Then, his skin was a shade or 2 lighter. IMO, he looked perfect at this point. Nothing else was necessary. Then, it suddenly went down-hill. The big weird butt chin seemed incongruous with the red lips, eyeliner & razor thin nose. At this point, the only thing I liked was the new hairdo: Jheri-curls always looked greasy & ratty to me. I didn't like them on anyone.

I don't think he molested children either. I DO think he acted irresponsibly with them (having creepy sleep-overs & sharing a room & sometimes a bed with them). His behaviour (acting childish & talking like a child) is the same behaviour pedophiles use in 'grooming' kids & gaiining their trust. Although I think MJ just had...issues... acting this way with kids is unwise: the NEXT smiling kiddy acting adult man is NOT likely to just want to climb trees & watch cartoons. It gives kids a false sense of security. I NEVEr offer little kids candy or ask them questions etc. although I know I am harmless: if I get them to cross this boundary, I'd be setting them up for possible victimization by the NEXT adult.

His music keeps running through my head & I keep remembering seeing the Thriller tour live. What an experience! For that, I must thank MJ.

Lexi2009

Ondine it is so strange because I was in my car driving and they played Billie Jean which led into a meddly of his 80's hits and suddenly I felt like I was a child again and I could "feel" the time when these songs came out and were all the rage. It is so strange how someone can be so talented and impact so many and be so weird.

Unfortunately the medical profession has more addicts than almost any other profession! Diprivan is so scary that I do not get why anyone would seek a high with it but I guess people do like drugs!

Michael suffered from what I think was a developmental disorder. I know that his behaviour is reminiscent of "grooming" but I have a theory about Michael that nobody has ever really considered publicly at least. I think Michael was fixed sexually on young boys BUT never acted on it and was not fixed on it in a manner we would consider normal sexual-in other words sexual for MJ was not to do with genitals or orgasms but more to do with deep intimacy. I think he was so hurt as a child that he stopped developing and as an adult he started to treat himself as a child-rather THE child he never was. I think his multiple plastic surgeries were to try and remain more feminine or rather more child-like and to rid himself of male secondary sex characteristics. He turned this extreme love HE wanted as a child inward then outward toward other boys and was symbolically giving love to boys at the very age he felt most hurt and needy. In other words I would say between 11-13 he was most traumatised and he sought boys to re-enact the love he wanted. Very deep stuff but I sincerely think we are all created by the sum of our experiences and Joe Jackson ruined that human being for profit.

As for plastic surgeons, well he never revealed WHO the surgeon or surgeons were so I think the sad fact is money will buy you anything. If anything I think this serves to the world as a warning what happens to children who are denied normal childhoods and forced into fame.

ondine

Good & thought provoking analysis, Lexi. I thin he did become fixated on this age group due to his own traumatic childhood. I believe His father was, in part, the ruin of him. Children NEED to play. It is developmentally essential. MJ didn't get that chance. He was virtually born with a full time job! Be that as it may, I found it a little self-serving to 'use' other people's children to try to re-gain a lost childhood. One cannot live vicariously. It is invariably unsatisfactory as it is inauthentic. At 40, one has lived & had the experiences, responsibilities & freedoms of adulthood. One has had to make tough choices & live with the consequences. No matter how many carnival rides you go on, no matter how much you giggle & act like a kid, it is a feint. An adult can have fun with kids, but not BE one.
Scary about Drs as addicts. I bet that many lethal medical errors get made that way!

There are unscrupulous plastic surgeons thhat'll do anything to anyone: just check out that Joclyn Wildenstein (sp?) & that tiger guy. There's a lizard man too. Not to mention all the soccer ball breast implants, chicklet teeth & the too pulled face-lifts! You see some sights out there!

gymrat

Wow! for someone who is so against the news/media/press, you sure read/watch it don't you? That is why we have news/media groups. Keep doing what you do, that is what we call the news appetite.

As for "circus" there is no circus. It is called news worthy information and people like you read it, listen to it, and enjoy it. If you didn't like it, or weren't intrigued by it, then you have the option to turn it off or not read it. Plain and simple.

As for being the largest story, you betcha!! It is afterall, Michael Jackson!

ondine

Gymrat, I am a self-confessed news junkie. I watch news in several countries & languages & read new mags from all over the place. I am guilty as charged. That being said (& I bet Lexi would agree) it doesn't mean I abdicate my right to view critically & express dismay with the news media's frequent lapses. My options arent simply watch & accept it OR to turn it off. We consumers have the right to advocate for quality & authenticity.

In my city, there had been a rash of home invasions. In several of them (but NOT all), the victims described the same suspect: a light skinned French speaking black man with big hazel eyes & full lips. There was a description of his clothing & physique too. A composite sketch was made of the big scary snake eyed individual. Time elapsed & he was not caught. THen, there was another home invasion BUT this time the victims could not describe a suspect: he had gotten away 'cat burgler' style. The local news media trotted out the 'big scary black guy' again. Viewers were highly critical of this lapse in journalistic integrity. While this guy was implicated in several (3-4) home invasions, there wasn't a shred of evidence that he'd done this one. In fact, the police even doubted it was the same man because the MO was so different. The scary guy delighted in 'roughing up' the terrified homeowners. Bullying them.

A week or so later, there was a home invasion blocks from where I lived. The media again made the mistake of trotting out the dreaded black guy. BIG MISTAKE: the victim recounted how his doorbell had rang & a pleasant looking teenaged white girl asked for a donation for some teen sports team or something. When he turned to go get the money, 4 white males abruptly shoved him & knocked him down & restrained him. They invaded & robbed his home. the girl as active a thief as the others. In this case, the homeowner was a black man. The media, once again, issued an apology & got their story straight.

Keeping a critical eye on the media is something I'll always do and I will continue to watch & read the news as well. One does not preclude the other. Like all institutions, the media is not above criticism.

Lexi2009

I have read the news every day of my life since I was in my teens and read papers in several countries since they all came online. Just because the press overdoes a story does not mean I tune out. I like to read more about politics and world events but I read whatever is being written, good or bad, right or wrong. I also watch the news daily on several channels and have the news on as background noise if I am home. Just habit.

I know it is a big story and I do not mind the coverage I just do not like the fact that they hurt people who are often ruined from reports that turn out to be false.

Lexi2009

PS Ondine--again could not agree more! You think just as I do on this!

Lexi2009

I am intrigued by psychological development and psychological issues. I think, if I recall correctly, that between 11-13 Michael was sleeping in hotel rooms with his brothers who were having sexual relations with groupies while he layed there. As a result this would be an age he was fixed on IN MY OPINION. It would make sense this trauma associated an arrest in his development, need for love at that age and sexuality into one association. I have actually heard interviews where he mentioned the sex and then also said things to the effect that children were innocent until adults corrupted them.

But yes, it is a serious shame he was used as a milk cow for that evil man who is his father.

In terms of his sexuality though and even looks I am more ambivalent than ever in proclaiming he was anything more than emotionally stunted. I saw Jermaine on tv yesterday and he looks almost as odd. His cheekbones, as with the entire family's, are high and look fake. His features do not look much like a typical African (black) but rather look more half European (caucasion). He also speaks with a very effeminate, soft voice and articulates almost as if he were gay or stereotypically gay I should say. It makes me wonder whether Michael was just a product of the family in terms of the soft aspects of his voice and his mannerisms.

It is such a shame anyone has to live and die such a lonely life.

ondine

It is truly a tragedy. It is like His father used & discarded him. They all had weird faces long before the surgeries began. Joe is weird looking: like the old 'Hamburgler' character from the old MacDonald's ads. The mother has unusual features too. they all have those hanging cheekbones too but MJ got iplants when he bought the butt chin. With Jermaine's face, the top half & the bottom half do not match. The tattooed on hair on the sides of his head looked really weird too. They are a strange bunch. So far, La Toya has yet to appear publicly. As media conscious as she is, this seemed strange to me. I wonder if she is recovering from yet another operation? She looked even odder than MJ IMO. Those too-big 'Diana Ross in 1985' hair weaves need to go.

Psychology fascinates me too & I've taken many courses in that dept (enough for a minor). This family could keep an entire team of experts busy for years. I was relieved to hear that Mrs. Jackson (who has the kids) lives in LA whereas Joe resides in Vegas. Good place for a guy like him (he can hang out with Don King & assorted Elvis impersonators!) the thought of him turning those poor 3 kids into a singing (juggling or tight rope walking) act is scary. They'll need plenty of love & support (& probably therapy) to get past this & hopefully get to live normal, or at least healthy, lives.