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Info - pH, Free Acid Value, Layering & Wait Times

68K views 58 replies 31 participants last post by  MrsBurney2015 
#1 ·
I forgot what site I got this from, but it is very good information. If you know exactly where it came from, please PM me, and I'll edit it to give proper credit. *** I have come to learn that this was posted by tangal on EDS. But I believe the original is from Diana Yvonne Skin Care Board ***.


pH

The initials pH stand for "Power of Hydrogen" or "Potential of Hydrogen." Both terms are correct. This is a measure of the hydrogen ion content in a solution.

The pH scale measures how acidic or alkaline a product is, compared to pure distilled water (which is pH 7.0). Only wet substances have a measurable pH. The skin's pH is actually the pH on the skins surface from the moisture within the skin, and the "acid mantle" which is part of the protective "barrier" on its surface. Hair for example has no pH.

The acid mantle is a fine film layer, slightly acidic, made up from skin oils, sweat, and dead cells. It is one means the skin uses to protect itself from bacteria, moisture loss, and environmental damage. Pollutants, harmful bacterium, contaminants are normally alkaline in nature, so a slightly acid skin surface helps fight off these harmful elements and prevent them from entering into, and damaging the skin. Maintaining the acid mantle is recommended for good skin health. When the acid mantle is damaged it takes approximately 14-17 hours to repair itself (assuming no other damaging products are applied to it).

A damaged acid mantle leads to a number of skin issues, such as over dry skin, dehydration, over oily skin, flaky skin, acne, sensitivity, etc. It would require another long post to detail all this. But incorrect pH products can contribute to acid mantle degradation, and increases in acne-causing bacteria on the skin. (More on this below)

The pH Scale

The pH scale goes from 0-14. This covers most wet substances, and certainly all skincare products.

-Acids have pH values under 7 - they are more acidic then water (acid)
-Alkalis have pH values over 7 - they are more alkaline then water (base)
-If a substance has a pH value of 7 - it is neutral, like water (neither acid nor base)

The difference between each whole-value pH level represents a tenfold change. (For example, a cleanser with a pH of 6 is ten times more alkaline than a cleanser with a pH of 5, and a cleanser with a pH of 7 is 100 times more alkaline then one of 5.) Because of this, only a few units of pH can make a big difference in how your skin reacts to a product.

Some pH examples:

pH 1 = Battery acid
pH 1.5 -2 = gastric (stomach) acid
pH 2 = lemon juice
pH 2.5 = cola soft drinks
pH 3 = vinegar
ph 3.5 = orange juice
pH 4.6-5.5 = healthy skin (and recommended pH range for your cleanser, for best skin health)
pH 5.5 = rainwater (pure water, when exposed to the atmosphere, will take in carbon dioxide, changing its pH)
pH 6.5 = milk
pH 6.5 – 7.4 = healthy saliva
pH 7 = pure distilled water - (This is neutral pH, neither acid nor base)
pH 7.35 – 7.45 = human blood
pH 8.5 = baking soda (damaging to skin's acid mantle)
pH 9 = seawater
pH 9.0-10.0 = hand soap, detergents (very damaging to acid mantle)
pH 10.5 = Milk of Magnesia
pH 11.5 = household ammonia
pH 12.5 = household bleach
pH 13 = lye (sodium hydroxide, or Draino)(Alkaline or Base extreme)


Skin and the Acid Mantle

Newborn baby skin has a neutral pH of 7. Within a few months it adjusts to a more "normal" pH of 4.5 to 5.5, enabling it to be more resistant to bacteria.

Adult skin is normally slightly acidic, a range of 4.5 to 5.5. Different body areas can differ in pH, and disease and acid mantle damage can alter pH. But the preferred range for facial skin pH is 4.5 to 5.5.

Those with skin disease, skin problems, and stressed skin usually have a skin pH over 6.0. Aged, stressed and damaged skin have more difficulty maintaining a “correct†pH.

As skin pH is elevated closer to pH 7.0, it becomes less and less able to function optimally and to kill bacteria. This allows acne-causing bacteria to multiply rapidly on the skin's surface. (Acne bacteria are found on everyoneâ€2122s skin, even if you never have a pimple in your life.) The damaged skin is unable to fend off the excess bacteria, and they multiply rapidly. Bacteria growth is very slow at pH of 5.5 or less, but a slight shift upward, toward the alkaline levels, causes a marked increase in the reproduction and lifespan of acne-causing bacteria.

So if your skin is at a higher pH (anything over 6, as damaged skin often is) the acne-causing bacteria can multiply much easier and faster -- often faster then your skin can handle. Skin pH is one main contributor to acne.

Skin pH also has an effect on how easily irritated your skin is, how well it ages, and how it deals with product and environmental stress. This is why it is recommended that you cleanse skin with mild, non-irritating products, as close to the skin's natural pH as possible.

Many commercial cleansers are highly alkaline, which also changes the skin's pH to alkaline levels on the skin surface, for a short time. Many alkaline cleansers are in the same pH range as baking soda, and some are nearly as high as ammonia. This is very harsh on the skin, and can lead to increased irritation, acne, moisture loss, skin aging etc. As pimples erupt, the skin is less able to heal itself, or the damage that pimples leave behind.

If a product has a high pH and a considerable percentage of a strong detergent such as sodium lauryl sulfate, or irritant like peppermint oil or menthol, because of the pH destructive activity on the acid mantle, the detergent can contribute to even more damage then it would if the product pH was closer to 5.5. It literally takes a split second for an alkaline product to degrade the skin barrier enough for an irritant or damaging detergent to penetrate. Some people can handle this better then others, but long term daily use on the skin can contribute to long term issues on all skin types. As skin ages, or the barrier function degrades, it has more difficultly dealing with this type of stress.

Even when the skin re-adjusts to its more normal pH (4.5 to 5.5) - it is already damaged, irritated and stressed. The damage recovery involves longer term healing; 14 to 17 hours for acid mantle repair. Continued long-term damage, stress, and mild irritation can prevent the skin from maintaining its best pH level of 4.5 to 5.5. With time, and increased damage, it may tend to stay at the 6 range or higher.

As skin become healthier, its pH values lower, and acne growth also lowers. The skin becomes more "normal" and regulated.

Listing of pH of many common cleansers:

The pH of Common Cleanser

A few examples from above link:

Burt's Bees Tomato, Carrot, and Lettuce soaps 10
Dial Soap (liquid and bar) 9.5
Dove Bar, Baby Dove Bar 7
Johnson & Johnson Head to Toe Baby Wash 6.5-7.0
Neutrogena Facial Cleansing Bar Original Formula 8.7-9.2
Paula's Choice (all formulations) 5.5

A product may include the term "pH Balanced" on the label. This does NOT mean that it has an optimal pH of 5.5. The term has no legal definition.

Some products are a good pH, but high in irritants. Which is better then high pH and high irritants, but not great either.

A good cleanser cleans the skin without breaking down the acid mantle, or adding irritants to the skin. It is mild with a 5.5 or lower pH.
 
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#31 ·
Hi everyone! I'm new here & I'm learning so much, so thank you to everyone that partakes in this forum!

What I'm finding out in all my time spent on SCT is that my skin is not doing as well as I thought it was. I think I may have caused some damage to my acid mantle and I was wondering what is the best thing I should do in order to get my skin to a normal level where I can start treating it for its discoloration. I have had some abnormal breakouts on my chin recently (I think due to my boyfriend growing out a short beard) and have probably not dealt with them in the best way possible. I have also been getting under the skin pimples on my jawline for a little while now that I've been treating without paying attention to any pH wait times. In fact, I've never paid attention to wait times, I don't always follow the same skin care regimen (I use different washes, toners, acids, spot treatments, etc daily), and I don't always wash my make-up off at night. All in all, I've been very bad to my skin recently and all my time spent on SCT recently is provoking me to be surprised that my skin doesn't look much worse than it does.

Currently my forehead, cheeks, & nose are nice, bright, and shiny, however, my chin is dry and broken out, my jawline has pimples that are under the skin, and the areas around the corners of my lips are red & i have a small little cut or tear on the corner of my lip on the right hand side.

In short, I'd like to know how is it that I can tell if I do in fact have acid mantle degradation? Is there a way of testing the pH level of my skin? What should I do/use to cleanse and moisturize my face until it's healthy enough to start treating the cosmetic issues with a peel? Can I use any spot treatments on my pimples? How long will it take to get my face to a healthy level to start treating? What should I do or not do in order to make this possible in the shortest amount of time? And lastly, I workout & I usually breakout from my sweating unless I clean my face IMMEDIATELY after the workout. What is recommended on the healthy parts of my skin to do this in order to make sure the sweat & dirt don't clog my open pores when they close & what can I do along my chin for this purpose in the interim? I have used Witch Hazel or a toner (Mario Badescu Special Cleansing "C") with the following INGREDIENTS: Deionized Water (Aqua),Isopropyl Alcohol, Camphor,Sodium Sulfate,Cucumber (Cucumis Sativus Fruit) Extract, Gum Benzoin,Nonoxynol-9,Boric Acid

If any one of you can help, I'd greatly appreciate it! I'm desperately in need of being fixed!

Thank you so much
 
#33 ·
Currently my forehead, cheeks, & nose are nice, bright, and shiny, however, my chin is dry and broken out, my jawline has pimples that are under the skin, and the areas around the corners of my lips are red & i have a small little cut or tear on the corner of my lip on the right hand side.

In short, I'd like to know how is it that I can tell if I do in fact have acid mantle degradation? Is there a way of testing the pH level of my skin? What should I do/use to cleanse and moisturize my face until it's healthy enough to start treating the cosmetic issues with a peel? Can I use any spot treatments on my pimples? How long will it take to get my face to a healthy level to start treating? What should I do or not do in order to make this possible in the shortest amount of time? And lastly, I workout & I usually breakout from my sweating unless I clean my face IMMEDIATELY after the workout. What is recommended on the healthy parts of my skin to do this in order to make sure the sweat & dirt don't clog my open pores when they close & what can I do along my chin for this purpose in the interim? I have used Witch Hazel or a toner (Mario Badescu Special Cleansing "C") with the following INGREDIENTS: Deionized Water (Aqua),Isopropyl Alcohol, Camphor,Sodium Sulfate,Cucumber (Cucumis Sativus Fruit) Extract, Gum Benzoin,Nonoxynol-9,Boric Acid
It's not just the acidity that counts, it's the effectiveness of the whole of your skin barrier - the stratus corneum. Healthy skin does not necessarily look shiny, not sure what you mean by that.
Pores do not open and close that is a myth; it may not simply be sebum causing breakouts post workout, if your skin is already irritated sweat can exacerbate that. You can treat your whole face the same, providing you are using super gentle products, you may then find the pimples clear up of their own accord. That toner looks pretty harsh, it contains alcohol and acne fighting ingredients. What other products are you using - cleansers and exfoliants especially? Is your moisturiser marked non-comedogenic and does it contain any fatty acids/ waxes/ oils that help repair the skin barrier? Be sure to take care of your skin from the inside out with an anti-inflammatory, nutrient dense diet.
 
#38 ·
Hi there guys,

At the advice of a friend, I Googled myself for a laugh. I came across this thread and had some great memories.


I don't know what the protocol is for intellectual property (and don't care that much..LOL) but all of the information on pH, acids , acid values, layering etc. was all originally written by myself.

I believe that someone has added a couple of additional paragraphs to elaborate on the some aspects of the skin barrier. Since "tangal" (Vicky) was compiling the information I posted, she may have elaborated based on her own knowledge or knowledge she picked up elsewhere.

I don't know if Vicky posts here, but she is a sweet (and smart) gal with loads of knowledge about sunless tanning (ran her own forum on that topic when I was last in contact with her) and growing long healthy hair!

I don't even know anything about this forum since Google brought me right to this thread. I will have to check it out now! A big shout out to anyone from the old SCB.


Best to all,
Deb xo
 
#39 ·
Quote: I forgot what site I got this from, but it is very good information. If you know exactly where it came from, please PM me, and I'll edit it to give proper credit. This is what I know about its origin, "More info on pH, compiled by tangal (former poster at the Diana Yvonne Skin Care Board) and edited by me (this is a work in progress, and I am still checking some facts. If you spot any problems, don't hesitate to PM me)"


In first post. ^^^^


Quote: I don't know what the protocol is for intellectual property (and don't care that much..LOL) but all of the information on pH, acids , acid values, layering etc. was all originally written by myself.


She didn't claim it as if she wrote it.

Nice to have you here.
 
#41 ·
No worries Iamme, you do a great deal helping people here and have practical experience for which there is no substitute.

Feel free whenever you want to use this :

To help explain the pH and FA and pKa to a person so that they don't get burnt.

*n.b. that is my own delightful creation...and I hope it helps people and I don't give a ratz butt about credit for basic infos.

It's really easy to DIY a peel or lotion....and it's really easy to screw yourself up. Not worth the risk. IMO. Kind of why I prefer the gel form. More control. But I am funny that way.
 
#42 ·
Hi again everyone.

I think my post may have been taken out of context, so I wanted to clarify that I don't care at all about "credit". That is why I stated in my post that I don't care what the protocol is for intellectual property.

I read the first post in the thread which is why I posted...just nostalgia really...and to answer the OP (Iamme). No worries on my end whatsoever....other than wondering if there is anything in there that sounds like nonsense now!
Like anyone, I am continuously learning new things and sometimes rejecting old knowledge/experience that has not stood the test of time.

One glaring issue is that some of the layering advice was specific to products sold by DY, as they were the ones used by my target audience at the time.

I think it would take me a year to take it all in, but this is by far the most impressive skin care forum I have seen in my life! Kudos to the owners/moderators. Many of you must be scientists and/or skin care professionals. Is there someone who could tell me a little bit about the origins, general vision, etc. of Skin Care Talk?

I have not been involved with any skin care website since the fall of the SCB in 2006. Even though I technically ran the SCB, I was never able to post freely as it was financially sponsored by a skin care reseller. I planned to start my own website by 2007, but my health did not allow me to do so.

I have a serious disease that cannot be cured at this time due to the nature and location of the tumors. It takes all I have some days just to keep going
, so it will take me some time to read my way through these forums!

Thank you so much for the welcome DragoN and Iamme.


Deb


Disclosure: I currently have absolutely no affiliation with any skin care company. I do formulate my own skincare products but do not sell them. I am a biochemist.
 
#44 ·
Is this even real? I am still persuading myself to come out of this dream. Look who is here! DebbieNIR is a diva of DIY skin care and her knowledge about skincare is absolutely phenomenal and breathtaking. I know her through a Skincareboad which , if I remember correctly was originally run by dianayvonne and to be very honest, people flocked to that forum primarily to seek skin care advices from DebbieNIR. Her contributions to that forum were priceless.

I was a part of SCB that she used to be active in and lately she abstained from posting from that website due to some misunderstandings and ego clashes(Through her exit from the forum, many learned that it is a curse to have a lot of knowledge,because the world we live is so envious about the knowledge one has gained). Her knowledge has changed the lives of many people. Whoever lost their hope about regaining their skin back, DebbieNIR has helped them tremendously with her knowledge. If I remember correctly, she is even a Biochemist by profession and I am extremely happy to see her after a very long time. She is probably a god sent gift to this board and I hope she stays here for a long time and that her free way of speaking out her mind and her enormous amount of knowledge, wouldn't offend, patronize or intimidate any moderators to an extent of banning her.

I sincerely hope there is a lot that we can learn from her in terms of skincare.

It is so nice to see you here, DebbieNIR. Moderators, with your permission, I welcome DebbieNIR to this board.

Thank you for allowing me to share my experiences and observations about DebbieNIR.

Cheers,
Haunty Boy
 
#45 ·
Oh god. I just read Debbie's post where she spoke about her ailment and I am so sorry to hear this Debbie. You are in my prayers. I sincerely believe in divine miracles and I pray the almighty to bless you with strength, love and healing.



PS: Life is truly wicked and it challenges good people a lot.
 
#46 ·
Haunty, we welcome all contributors, including DebbieNIR. To set the record straight, again, the only people who are banned are those who do not conform to the SCT rules. Moderators are simply here to enforce the rules that have been established by SCT. I'm sure Debbie won't be promoting or cross-promoting products she sells, so she is a welcome addition!

Debbie, I am sorry to hear of your health problems. You are in our thoughts.
And we are all interested in hearing the information you have to share!
 
#47 ·
I don't know Debbie but I am VERY familiar with DianaYvonne and her products. Used her stuff for YEARS!! Still get a few things here and there. It is a great site!! http://www.dianayvonne.com/ As far as SCT its rules and Moderators...........I could NOT have answered this any better than Iamme. Let me just add this................At the end of the day, LIFE is all about following rules in some sort of way. Internet forums are no different and all have their own set of rules to follow. If you choose to be a member of any forum, following the rules is all that is asked. Moderators are only there to enforce them. The Moderators here at SCT are regular people who enjoy skincare and learning/sharing with the rest of you. :cheers:
 
#48 ·
Came across this thread in a search about salicylic acid but WOW this is some awesome information here! Thanks for this Iamme, I never realized the pH importance of cleansers and waiting periods until now, very helpful. I need to bookmark this because I most certainly will be referring to this thread again.
 
#52 ·
I have a question. So if water has a ph of 7, when we wash our faces, even if the cleanser we use is inside of the healthy skin ph range, we can actually still be altering the ph of our skin, isn't it? And really, water is used with pretty much every type of cleanser, no matter if it's foaming, lotion, cream, oil, etc.
 
#58 ·
If you want to purchase locally a health store may have them, as well as a pool, or fish supply store.

I use the paper strips whats important is the range. Get this ranges and you will be fine.......

pH-Fix 2.0 - 9.0
Range: 2.0 - 2.5 - 3.0 -3.5 - 4.0 - 4.5 - 5.0 - 5.5 - 6.0 - 6.5 - 7.0 - 7.5 - 8.0 - 8.5 - 9.0
 
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